Total Newbie forum required...

[andycrofts]

Hi.
Just saw that a new user, handle "SB1872" posted his first post, but it was immediately closed because the subject was ?too vague? (i'm guessing).
Problem is, when you're a complete 'n00b', it's the old story. "If you knew the answer, you could ask the right question"

I feel sorry for the fellah, because it was pretty obvious he didn't know anything at all, which category to post, or anything.

Somehow, I wonder if our forums have become too 'sophisticated', and, like the change of name from 'linuxnewbie', subconsciously we don't care that much about total novices. "We've moved on, why haven't they?"
Looking at some of the more esoteric posts here, I reckon I could answer the same percentage as when I first picked up Linux - they still scare the bejeezus out of me - we've grown some. And forgotten others?

So maybe we should open a new category, "I really haven't a clue, I've never even seen a Linux Box, how do I dip my toe in the water" Kinda forum. (Moderators - immediately remove any post that replies to such a question that mentions Slack, Gentoo, LFS )

Back to basics? Why not.

-BR

-Andy

[Jata]

I agree. I seem to remember seeing a similar post not long ago where the newbie in question got put off by some of the replies and 'defected' to LinuxQuestions. It should also help limit flaming because you've then got no excuse to flame them in the 'Total Newbie Forum'. I don't consider myself a total newbie anymore as now when I crap up my system I've usually had a 'Is this a good idea?' moment before I do it. I do however go back to total newbie material once in a while to refresh the memory.

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and put a vote in for a strong NO.

The only time we close or delete a thread is when it violates our Community Help Posting Guidelines or the AUP. "Complete Newbie" has nothing to do with the questions the poster had.

For one thing, he asked a bunch of questions in one thread. For another thing, every single one of those questions could have been answered by doing a forum search. If he had wanted to ask such questions, it would have been a better idea to ask each question in a new thread, each thread having a specific title. That is, of course, assuming that he had done a forum search to see if those questions hadn't been covered before.

I feel that ignorance is no excuse. We're not too sophisticated, but I feel that it isn't unreasonable for people to read our Guidelines. If people read and abided by those guidelines, they'd not only have better results here, but they could ask a question virtually anywhere and get a reasonable response.

My personal opinion is that it's kind of lazy to not read the guidelines and just post however you want. If they don't want to take the time to abide by some really easy to follow guidelines, then I don't think it's worth our time to help them.

...But anyways, even this topic has been discussed into a hole in the ground. I'm not really sure how much more can be said about it.

[sclebo05]

newbies are welcome here. and there shouldn't be a separate forum - they should be in here with the big dogs. if you had a forum for just newbies, there would be no one BUT newbies in there and nothing would get solved.

honestly, what guru wants to go and answer 500 questions in a sitting? so the best thing is to have as many people of varying levels together, so that the 'work load' of questions and answers gets spread evenly. i answer what i can, and i let gurus answer anything that's over me. ask away.

[NewEnglandLinux]

I went into this thread thinking that andycrofts had a great point. To a certain extent I still think that he's got a point in that there should be a place for uber newbies, even if it's just a place to point out the obvious. I think the "sticky" at the top does that for most people but some guys still want to actually talk to someone, even if it's to point out that they should "RTFM" - Read The F****ng Manual.

I finished reading the thread and I thought that sclebo05 made a great point and that he's absolutely right. If you're going to get into this "Linux thing" you might want to learn what the rules are and then start playing by them. It will take you a lot farther a lot quicker if you paid attention to what you were doing and how you did it. These boards are a great forum for newbies because they bring all experience levels together. The most important thing though, is that it brings in people who are willing to help other people out. I don't think that it's asking too much to ask a new person to play by the rules. If they're not willing to take their time to read the guidelines and then comply with them, why should anyone bother helping them.

We also shouldn't forget that sometimes people miss things, and while they might have searched, they might not have actually seen what they were looking for, or they couldn't figure it out and needed to have it put a different way.

Either way, thank you to all the people that keep coming back to help us newbs out, and we newbs should remember to try before we cry.

[ookami01]

in a way i think that there should be a forum for more hardcore newbies like grandma who doesn't know cp from rm. Although the previous image is way to exaggerated.

but more so i think that the newbies should just play by the rules. I am a experienced computer user and i get asked questions like how do i set this up what webpage is this on. And i'm like, "I don't want to do everything for you. Just do a search on google for it and will be the fourth one down like it always is, thats how i find it." or "just read the instructions, follow the onscreen information."

i think that computer users need to start fending for themselves and a little while i don't mind helping i don't want to have to show someone how to install a program --- "IN WINDOWS" just click the .exe file and that it.

A little searching goes along way as does showing me what you have done already and coherently describing the symptoms. rather than babbling about something totally irrelevant.

in short -- sorry about the rant but... -- computer users need to start doing for themselves and take some initiative in solving problems. so no special forum maybe just users with more initiative

[mage492]

Of course, a lot of people don't see the community guidelines sticky post. Before coming here, I'd never even SEEN a "sticky", actually. Even so, I think that most of the rules are common sense. I know we all make mistakes, though, and I know that newbies are more prone than even others. For example.

"Well, I KNOW it says ... in the guidelines, but is this okay? It might be skirting the lines, a bit, but I'd really like to know..."

As andycrofts said, "If you knew the answer, you could ask the right question." An example that springs to mind is Webmin, for remote administration. If you go to Google and type in "remote administration", you're going to have a TON of results to sort through. It's easy to miss stuff. If you type in "Webmin", though, it's right there. Plus, people are looking for "good" software, which isn't readily apparent from a product's webpage.

Okay, this might draw some flames, but I think it may be a bit harsh to lock a newbie's first topic. They may still be learning the ropes. For some, this may be their first forum. They're stuck on a problem and find our site. We could give them a polite warning, but outright locking it could scare people away.

Hey, we've all made posts that either skirted or crossed the lines. Though I'm ashamed to admit it, I made a "Which Distro for my 486" type of thread. Though I had thought that adding some specifics to the question would make it more acceptable, I guess I crossed the guidelines. The topic wasn't locked, but a post from mdwatts was enough to let me know. I've never done that, again.

Most people just want a little help. I don't think they mean to be a pain. A little guidance (and tolerance for first-time posters) might make newbies a bit more comfortable. Starting with your second post, though, you're just like everyone else.

Just a thought (Gee, that went on a little while...).

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by mage492

Okay, this might draw some flames, but I think it may be a bit harsh to lock a newbie's first topic. They may still be learning the ropes. For some, this may be their first forum. They're stuck on a problem and find our site. We could give them a polite warning, but outright locking it could scare people away.

Again, and this is not flaming: there's no excuse for a newbie, or anyone, to not abide by our guidelines, especially as they're posted at the top of every help forum where people ask questions. The only time they don't abide by them is because they either didn't read them, or they don't care enough to abide by them. Either way, I, or the other mods can't be blamed for doing what we've been told to do. The guidelines are really common sense, as stated previously.

Besides, how would you like to see an entire forum of questions entitled "<--- Newbie needs help here", or "ARGH! I'm lost! HELP!!!" ? Just because you're a new Linux user, you don't have free reign to disregard the rules or guidelines of a specific help venue.

I mean, a nuclear scientist cracks an atom the wrong way on the first day of the job, creates a black hole, and rips a hole in space, thus destroying the universe. Do you think he could stand there with a straight face and say, "Hey, I'm new! It's not my fault!"?

[Sepero]

maybe we should open a new category, "I really haven't a clue, I've never even seen a Linux Box, how do I dip my toe in the water" Kinda forum.

I believe that used to be the "Technical" forum, or so it seemed...

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and put a vote in for a strong NO.

I agree.

every single one of those questions could have been answered by doing a forum search.

If you may remember a while back, I started a thread suggesting they put the search on the front page like Google or Yahoo. The problem is many newbies don't find out until later that we even have a search feature.

My personal opinion is that it's kind of lazy to not read the guidelines and just post however you want.

For most newbie's, this isn't the first place they came to. They've probably done quite a few searches before they ever even reached JL. They're probably tired of jumping through hoops to try and get into Linux. Most of them just wanna get away from some other OS, and ASAP. My vote is towards just being extra lenient on them for the first 5-10 posts. They'll read the guidelines eventually, just let 'em get a little comfy here first.

[twilli227]

quote:
if you had a forum for just newbies, there would be no one BUT newbies in there and nothing would get solved.

Have to disagree with you on this one. I have been to other forums with a newbie section and their questions do get answered by other members besides newbies. This forum had a newbie section at one time and it worked.(from my point of view)
I think there should be a newbie section, but I know it is not going to happen.
There should be more slack for a new poster, but the mods have a job to do. For the most part, the mods have a thankless job, but they do good work here.
End of rambling.

[mage492]

Originally posted by Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379
I mean, a nuclear scientist cracks an atom the wrong way on the first day of the job, creates a black hole, and rips a hole in space, thus destroying the universe. Do you think he could stand there with a straight face and say, "Hey, I'm new! It's not my fault!"?

I loved that...

Anyway, I'm not referring to major things like, "Help. Complete noob!" topics. Those should be dealt with. What I'm talking about are relatively minor things. For example, topics that are ALMOST good ("sound card"). In the second example, I figure they're at least trying. Also, I've seen several cases where a fellow member will point out something like, "That topic isn't really a good one. Next time you might want to..." Most people get the hint. Renaming a topic (like we usually do, now) is a good way to deal with first-time posters. If someone did that and politely reminded them of the guidelines, I think that would solve most people's problems.

Basically, I'm not talking about blatant violations. Just the stuff that's minor or "skirting the edge". Even if people read the guidelines, it still takes time to get a feel for exactly where the line is.

I'd say the mods do a great job, here (especially considering they're not paid). I just think all of us need to remember when WE were new to the forum.

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by mage492
Anyway, I'm not referring to major things like, "Help. Complete noob!" topics. Those should be dealt with. What I'm talking about are relatively minor things. For example, topics that are ALMOST good ("sound card"). In the second example, I figure they're at least trying. Also, I've seen several cases where a fellow member will point out something like, "That topic isn't really a good one. Next time you might want to..." Most people get the hint. Renaming a topic (like we usually do, now) is a good way to deal with first-time posters. If someone did that and politely reminded them of the guidelines, I think that would solve most people's problems.

Basically, I'm not talking about blatant violations. Just the stuff that's minor or "skirting the edge". Even if people read the guidelines, it still takes time to get a feel for exactly where the line is.

I'd say the mods do a great job, here (especially considering they're not paid). I just think all of us need to remember when WE were new to the forum.

I'm glad you should bring up this point. I'm sure that my fellow moderators have mentioned this in the past, but we do have a policy on how we handle "almost okay" posts , like ones entitled "Soundcard":

Unlike ones that are blatantly off, like "I'M A N00B D00D! H3LP!!! " a thread that almost works is supposed to be renamed. For instance, "Soundcard" might get renamed to "SiS 7018 insmod troubles (was: Soundcard)". We're sure to have the (was: xxxxxxx) part there, because some have complained that users couldn't find their posts after being renamed. Now, if they can't find their post, they've got more problems than having soundcard installation issues