Linux needs to unify to compete

[Parcival]

And then she forgets how to shut it down so she takes the disk out of the drive and reboots the machine with the power button.

How does she do that? I assume she doesn't know umount, plus even if she tried the system should refuse to open the drive since at this point the CD is the system disk. Is she using a hairpin?

[thedreampolice]

Hairpin? I always use a paperclip.

[d-kam]

Well, I've read through the replies and humbly bow down in newbie wrongness. I suppose it is just overwhelming for a newbie to get into Linux and that annoyes me. I have suffered two X Server crashes by doing things that on Windows are like taking a stroll in the park (updating drivers). The plus side of Linux (well, at least so far as Fedora Core and SuSe are concerned) though is that it is definitly easier to install than Windows, with most tings being configured and installed with only 1 restart. Just wish that it was less fragmented and more unified as a newbie is all, I'll get used to it though. I like Linux a lot.

Dan.

[rocketpcguy]

and linux does have 3d desktops, looking glass or metisse. still in development, but working. 2d effects with 3d acceleration can be done with xorg composite transparency with nvidia drivers

also, id rather have choice with many applications

[Parcival]

Well, I've read through the replies and humbly bow down in newbie wrongness.

I disagree with you on the word "wrongness" because it's a valid oppinion to ask for a unification in the Linux world. It is a subject of debate and always will be - and it pushes Linux forward. It's just that except for Linux who has the authority over the kernel there are no ultimate authorities anywhere so this creates a vivid diversity and competition to develop new ideas. Ironically, the software industry accuses opensource software to destroy innovation and competition when the exact opposite is true.

[agatonsax]

I think d-kam gave up too early.

There is so much that can be unified and still have different flavours of GNU-Linux (just Linux in this text).

To me unification means things like having a simple installation program like in Windows, everyone knows how they work. There is something on the way here with Sourceinstaller. I haven't tried it myself but I think it should be so easy to use that everyone can use it. That doesn't mean leave out all the options, just have them hidden a button-click away for the ordinary user.


To have the same layout in the filetree, as it is now every distro have their own layout and when you install something it's "usually in" only to find out it's not so with the distro you are using.

To have programs made for Linux actually working with Linux instead of being for KDE or Gnome only. You don't have to ditch one as he said, just make them work with each other better.

Right now I think Linux is a inferior system (for the average user) because of it being so divided regardless how good the system in itself is. As it is now I believe Linux will always be a minority system for the end user. For other uses, like servers and the like I believe it will continue to grow.

The more end users is good IMHO. Other things will grow when the users come, like more games, more applications or huge improvements in the existing ones like Open Office.

Competition is good and it doesn't have to shut out other users like now. KDE Office, Open Office and Gnome Office competing with each other leads to new ideas, faster improvements and the like.

Small things can do so much for Linux and the average user. Right now the learning curve is too high for most and they just give up and go back to Windows.

Post your thoughts again please.

[justbill]

NEVER GIVE UP! NEVER SURRENDER! :-)

Justbill
(still reasonably new myself)

[XbaxeSysAdmin]

i suppose i have a minimal right to shoot my mouth off now right . Ive been with linux since March ( look at my reg date ) and been on it full time since july . Im using a source-based distro and i am reasonably competent enough to help around in these forums . I personally think that we just need base guide lines which everyone will follow to help develop stuff that will work with each other. Other than that , i believe that having alot of choices is really good .

Only what you put in , will come out . If you put alot of effort into learning the ropes of linux for a month , you are set . You would be able to deal with any problems that happen to bounce you way . Windows on the other hand .......

I concur with justbill , Never Give Up!

[bazoukas]

if people were willing to put all that energy they put into windows (trying to fix the registry, trying to fight spyware, viruses, formating, reinstalling and random mouse clicks to correct what is wrong), they would learn Linux rather fast.

Pick one Distro dude, stick with it, learn it. Then everything will fall into place fast and easy, no matter what distro you are using.

[GmarAppledude]

You guys have made me feel a little guilty now. I'm sorry d-kam for being overly harsh in my first reply. I stand by what I said but maybe I could have put it better.

[d-kam]

I think d-kam gave up too early.

There is so much that can be unified and still have different flavours of GNU-Linux (just Linux in this text).

To me unification means things like having a simple installation program like in Windows, everyone knows how they work. There is something on the way here with Sourceinstaller. I haven't tried it myself but I think it should be so easy to use that everyone can use it. That doesn't mean leave out all the options, just have them hidden a button-click away for the ordinary user.


To have the same layout in the filetree, as it is now every distro have their own layout and when you install something it's "usually in" only to find out it's not so with the distro you are using.

To have programs made for Linux actually working with Linux instead of being for KDE or Gnome only. You don't have to ditch one as he said, just make them work with each other better.

Right now I think Linux is a inferior system (for the average user) because of it being so divided regardless how good the system in itself is. As it is now I believe Linux will always be a minority system for the end user. For other uses, like servers and the like I believe it will continue to grow.

The more end users is good IMHO. Other things will grow when the users come, like more games, more applications or huge improvements in the existing ones like Open Office.

Competition is good and it doesn't have to shut out other users like now. KDE Office, Open Office and Gnome Office competing with each other leads to new ideas, faster improvements and the like.

Small things can do so much for Linux and the average user. Right now the learning curve is too high for most and they just give up and go back to Windows.

Post your thoughts again please.

I think what made me give up was the argument that choice is a good thing in an OS. Of course, Linux is basically the kernel part, and the element of choice is the stuff that goes on top. I can see why people appreciate choice, but I do not at this stage, and I have personally decided to restrict the choice I have for the moment and stick with something for a while until I get to know it really well (which, if you're interested, is Fedora Core 4, Gnome and Yum). I still think that unification in terms of installers etc would be the way forward imho, as I don't think most consumers are interested in getting down and dirty with a command line or learning about how the filesystem works etc, they just want it to work with a minimum of fuss. XP is a chit OS which is challenging to install/configure (for newbie's, not myself) but most retailers pre-configure XP on their boxes so that the consumer doesn't have to do anything, they just carefully follow the instructions about plugging USB cables into the right socket and think they are computer literate if they change their background wallpaper. Do they want to rebuild a kernel any time soon? Nope, so they are not therefore in a good position to switch over to a complex system such as 'Linux' which has a steeper learning curve if you want it to work as well as XP can. I have taken the plunge with Linux, and am determined to become advanced with Linux one day, but that is mainly due to me not liking Microsoft as a company and thinking that the ideology of Linux is very sound indeed. Yep, I am gonna fight the command line until I get my head round it! Once I do, and by which time installers will hopefully have an easier, more newbie friendly system anyway, I will reccommend, install and configure Linux for family and friends and be on the line if anything goes wrong for them. I wouldn't reccommend it as it stands though, unless the person I am reccommending it to has a keen interest in computers like myself.

Dan.

[agatonsax]

Your answers are just what I mean with my post:

"If you put alot of effort into learning the ropes of linux for a month , you are set ."

and

"Pick one Distro dude, stick with it, learn it."

d-kam put it in words with

"as I don't think most consumers are interested in getting down and dirty with a command line or learning about how the filesystem works etc, they just want it to work with a minimum of fuss."

I totally agree with d-kam. Right now Windows XP is the system with minimal fuss. Sure, it has lots of problems and some of them are really, really bad. If you have a problem you just call your neighbour or something (something might be running a rescue-CD) but if you have a problem with Linux you have to find someone that knows it and maybe even have to have the same distro to know of the problem.

The people that decide to try Linux have usually searched the net for some info and found places like this but I doubt most Windows users have looked for the Windows equivelents. They just call a friend instead. So telling them to try Linux without any knowledge of pages like this will be a disaster and they go back to Windows.
Games is one of the reasons people buy PC and the lack of them in Linux will keep people away and I guess game companies will stay away if they need to have support for 20+ different distros. Sure, they can realease them without support and let the Linux community sort out the problems people have and the community will most likely do that. Unfortunately I don't think they will until it's easier or there are so many users that it's worth the trouble, which I don't think will happen until Linux as a whole is a lot easier.

"if people were willing to put all that energy they put into windows (trying to fix the registry, trying to fight spyware, viruses, formating, reinstalling and random mouse clicks to correct what is wrong), they would learn Linux rather fast."

Again, I believe this relates to how easy it is to get hold of someone that knows how to fix this. Even if they are willing to fix these problems doesn't mean they are willing to try Linux because of the lack of games/too many distros to chose from that they don't know where to start/differance in distros etc.

edit: Just read http://www.justlinux.com/forum/showt...hreadid=141352 and it contains a lot of "fears" the Windows users have and the lack of games.

[fruitbat!]

A sad but true fact is that it seems to me that the average computer user (from a windows background) has been brought up on the wrong kind of coffee - they are too used to having their hand held all the way. This usually involves going from the frying fan into the fire - most of the time. I have had to learn like a lot of you have already said the more effort you put in the more you get out. I also did one hell of a lot of rearch into various areas that I just didn't understand.

Hell one night I decided to try a different distro and ended up installing about 4 or 5. In the I stuck with the 1 that I am happiest with and the one that I have been using the longest(no guts no glory!) Ihave even tried having a gop at installing Gento b4 now but I got lost and couldn't find enough info on it.

But as always I am glad for from help from the likes of this forum.

[cylent77]

I used to have the same thinking you currently do until I realized without variety you cant have "Linux" as we know it today.

Windows is a closed source operating system run by one company that made itself big by worshiping satan.
Its illegal ways of doing things got it to where it is today.

If you want Linux to have 1 of everything then you are shooting it in the foot. Having no variety and having only 1 of everything just wont work.

Thats all I have to say.

[blackbelt_jones]

Well, I've read through the replies and humbly bow down in newbie wrongness.

I still turn out to be wrong much of the time. It's embarassing, but it's a valuble part of the learning process.