At last! Decent documentation!

[blackbelt_jones]

I've only been running Fedora Core 4 for a couple of days, but I think that today, if a beginner asked me the "best newbie distro", I might suggest FC4-- not because it's such a great distro (although it's pretty good) but because I have discovered The Unofficial Fedora FAQ . This is the kind of documentation that I've always known was possible. I haven't read the whole thing, so I have no way of knowing how comprehensive it is, but three times now, I have found exactly the information I was looking for instantly. In my view, this is reason enough for a newbie to start with Fedora. In the Linux world, good software is a dime a dozen; good instructions are pure gold.

The truth is, you don't need to be a computer geek to run Linux. You usually do need to be a computer geek to read the fabulous manual, because of the painfully linear way they're written. An average person doesn't want to read three chapters about how to install Fedora, and all the possible variations for partitioning, particularly if he's already got the goddamn thing installed-- but the way these books are written, if you don't read the five thousand word installation saga, you're likely to miss the context, and be totally lost when you try to get some information . The specific info you need to do what you want with Linux is rarely very complicated, but coming upon the information has taken forever.

And puh-leeze spare me the tedious, condescending "it's called Google" spiel. You really do need at least a little bit of knowledge to find any really specific practical information specific information on Google, believe me. A guy once tried to prove to me how easy it is to find things on Google by doing a search for "disable X server" or something like that, and finding the necessary information at the top of the list. That was fine for him, but it hadn't really occurred to me that I needed to disable the X server. All I knew was that I wanted to login at the console. So I had done a search for something like "debian console login" which is not nearly as specific. That was a long time ago, and I can't remember what I had come up with, but for months I had earnestly gone to Google again and again-- and again and again I had earnestly come up with irrelevant incomprehensible crap.

Right now I actually am trying to read a thousand page Linux manual from beginning to end-- but that's because I really do want to be an expert some day. But I shouldn't have to read one of these books just to run my home desktop. It's just not necessary.

It shouldn't be that hard to anticipate the needs of an ordinary user, provide the information he or she will need, and supply an easy way for that user to find the information he needs. One of the really cool things about the Fedora Faq is that it's all in one page, making it really easy to find precise information in about a second with my browser's "find" feature. If I want to know how to mount an ntfs partition, I type "ntfs" into the little window, hit return, and I'm THERE, man!

The "find" feature is also great for searching the table of contents for The Linux Cookbook by Carla Schroder, another great source of documentation (note that there are too books with this title, and I think that this might actually be the less well known of the two) Take a look at the table of contents to see how this book is beautifully this book has been geared toward the user who has a problem. I was SO happy when I discovered this book!

I gotta go to sleep. I'll check this page for typos tomorrow.

[hiwa]

> Click here to see it enlarged
Funny. I like it.
And the documentation you have mentioned seems to be good.
I have it bookmarked.

[tlyons]

I guess I would respectfully disagree that Fedora is a good distro to recommend to newbies. (As for RPM distros: Mandriva or PCLinuxOS, yes.)

But then I never felt that Debian was a good newbie distro (compared with Mepis, Linspire or Ubuntu).

Great documentation is wonderful, but in my experience most people won't read it, especially if it looks like there is too much. (Much documentation = Complicated distro = Do I really want to take the time to digest all of this = No, I'd rather use something else = Linux sucks).

A good newbie distro should be intuitive enough do to basic tasks with without reading anything, and should do the more complex ones automatically. Otherwise, we get people running back to what they know (Windows).

- T.

[Calipso]

Fedora FAQ's is pretty good. They have a link there to fedora forums which is also pretty useful. I think UBUNTU has a similar documentation page. I think they call it the start-up guide or something along those lines.

As far as suggesting Fedora as a newbie distro, I would have to disagree. Well it really depends on the user I guess. If the user is willing to learn/tinker around a bit, then its good, but if the user just wants it to work, then no. Reason I wouldnt recommend it is because you have to do extra work to get stuff like mp3s to work....Things like this really discourage people from using Linux and its sometimes more work than a user wants to do. If the first thing a new user notices is that their new OS cant play mp3s theyre gonna automatically think "This thing sucks!!, it cant even play my music!!". Once again of course it all depends on what kind of user/person the newbie is. I personally like fedora and YUM. The 2 main things(amongst a few small things here and there) I dont like about it is that I cant use YUM to upgrade from one version to a new version when it comes out. I have to download and burn new cds. 4 of them at that!! Although I think theyre planning to cut that down to 2 cds next release.

[Icarus]

While I somewhat agree with tlyons, I think much differently

Fedora is a very simple distro to learn that is very well documented by Red Hat and the community. RPMhell problems are easy to resolve once you figure out how RPMs work (learn people! Learning doesn't end after you get a diploma! ) and most Fedora issues are very easy to resolve.

What would you consider an "intuitive" distro? All the ones I've used make perfect sense, once you figure out the layout. Do not even try using the "Windows is very intuitive" argument because it is not, not even close. People 'think' it is but that's only because they have used it for years.
Linux is not Windows!
Once someone figures that out it becomes A LOT easier to learn

If people don't want to read the docs, that's their business and have not right to complain when they don't know how to do something. The same rule applies for everything in life, you need to study to know how to do anything

[/rant]

[blackbelt_jones]

Great documentation is wonderful, but in my experience most people won't read it, especially if it looks like there is too much. (Much documentation = Complicated distro = Do I really want to take the time to digest all of this = No, I'd rather use something else = Linux sucks).

A good newbie distro should be intuitive enough do to basic tasks with without reading anything, and should do the more complex ones automatically. Otherwise, we get people running back to what they know (Windows).

- T.

Well my point is that with the documentation I cite here, you don't have to read all of it, because you can find the information you're looking for to do what you want to do. It's not rocket science, it's a simple matter of writing documentation with a user in mind, not a reader.

If people don't want to read the docs, that's their business and have not right to complain when they don't know how to do something. The same rule applies for everything in life, you need to study to know how to do anything

This attitude would make more sense if user-oriented documentation wasn't possible, but it is. I spent three years wrestling with the docs-- and overall, the docs suck, and I will complain all I want.

As more people come to Linux from a less technical background, the situation is bound to change. In the "About the Author" page from The Linux Cookbook, Carla Schroder mentions how she got her first computer at the age of 39. THAT is why she gets it. I'm certain that her experience was a lot like mine-- and, like me, every time she learned something, she thought to herself, as I do, "That could have been a hell of a lot easier."

[mrrangerman43]

sorry about this

[mrrangerman43]

Hi all,

I do have to say that you all have valid arguments, but being new to linux myself I have to agree with blackbelt_jones. I have several books on unix/linux, infact I have a collage 101 book and I've read most all of them, and the thing that they all had in common is they all tend to write to people that already know linux. And the online documentation is not kept up to date, at least that I have seen. Does this mean I don't think people should have to read howto's, no, one of the reasons I came to linux is so I can learn. Shoot I've learned more about pattitioning a hard-drive with linux in one night than the 9 years I've been using windows. I like the fact that I am in more control of what is running on my pc and not having lord knows what running in the back-ground. But it would help if howto documents were set up in an easier format and easier to find, than to have to spend days looking for an answer to a problem you come up against. I'm not saying ALL documentation is that way, but alot of it is.

Dan

[blackbelt_jones]

The reason why I mentioned Fedora as a possible newbie distro is because of the documentation, no other reason-- but I don't see anything wrong with Fedora as a for an intelligent beginner. I started out by using Red Hat, and if I had access to real package management, I might still be using it. I could never do one hundred per cent of everything I wanted to do with Debian, but when I installed it off the net, I could at least apt-get packages with all their dependancies simply and easily, because apt-get was already set up. The information for how to get package management for other distros wasn't terribly complicated-- but for me, it was hard to find. That's why, after I became a little more knowlegable, I took the time to startthis thread.

I think that the assumption that people who come to Linux want an experience as close to Windows as possible is too often made. Why would they come to Linux if they weren't looking for something new? I couldn't do everything I wanted to do with Debian, but I really didn't care all that much because I knew that I was running a REAL computer, and I got a huge kick out of that. That's what kept me going.

The Fedora FAQ is organized so that it put all the information that I happened to need for setting up Fedora into my hands instantly, and personally I would infinitely prefer to have easy access to the information necessary to run a powerful, flexible Linux system than a dull, boring, "intuitive" (dumbed-down) faux Windows system that I don't need any documentation for.

The real reason why Windows can be learned without a manual hasn't got much to do with technology. It's cultural. If Linux came preinstalled with every computer, and if everyone around us used Linux, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Better documentation is one way in which the culture is changing.

[lnx_nu_b]

I started out on Mandrake 7.2 and ran like hell when I couldn't get my modem working. At that point in my life, Linux was not necessary.

I went back at 8.0 and loved it, and continued on til 9.xx or 10.xx. During that time I also played with Fedora Core 3. Better than mandrake in many respects, but I hate RH, so it still wasn't what I wanted, and I HATE RPM HELL.

FC3 still runs my webserver and does a great job at it. I've been using Ubuntu for the last 3-4 months and it's a great distro, moreso for the fact that I love apt-get. I know there is 'yum' for Fedora, but for what I was doing at the time, it was unnecessary, and I never persued it.

Would I recommend Fedora to a newbie. Sure, but probably not before I recommend Ubuntu for Mandrake first.

Ubuntu does have an unofficial users's guide, which is a GREAT resource http://www.ubuntuguide.org/

Everyone has a different opinion on what is a better dist. for who. My uncle loves Suse, his son loves RH. To each their own.

[tlyons]

What would you consider an "intuitive" distro? ... Once someone figures that out it becomes A LOT easier to learn ... If people don't want to read the docs, that's their business and have not right to complain ...

No sense in getting into a semantics war. If I have to weigh every word I use on this site, I won't get much real work done at work/home.

No, Windows is not intuitive, but seeing as 90-95% of the mouse clickers out there have hands on autopilot, they expect their computer to react in a certain way. I've read a lot of flack in the media about Linux trying to be "too much like Windows", with the "Desktop stuck on Stupid", etc. Personally, I think it's suicide NOT to at least try to work toward an interface that responds similarly. How much time will a newbie play with a Linux distro that isn't at least somewhat familiar feeling? Not very long.

Anyone here had a gander at Novell's videos?
http://betterdesktop.org/welcome/?q=data

Unless we're trying to remain some kind of exclusive club, or a niche market, or whatever, we have to acknowledge that people (for better or worse) are comfy with Windows and will only consider migration to a system that is familiar and comfortable. Why switch to an operating system that will require me to read a manual? Why switch to an operating system where driver support is hit or miss (especially on new hardware, or on wireless)? Why switch to an operating system where gaming is comparitively weak?

Crack dealers do a better job of selling their product that we do. Make it easy, make it free... hook 'em, reel 'em in.

Everyone: Just be careful what you tell a newbie. Give them the easiest way in you can. If they have an overwhelmingly positive experience they'll be much more likely to stick with what you've given them (if even only part-time) than go running back to Windows. Those that want more power will either ask for advice, or go find another distro on their own. But the rest may just stay satisfied where they are. Nothing wrong with that. And anyone that tells a newbie to try out Gentoo needs an anvil dropped on their head.

Bottom line: Drivers are never going to improve significantly as long as we remain the 3l337 |<luB. And we don't have to get huge... just bigger than (or at least as noticeable to John Q. Public as) the Mac.

- T.

[blackbelt_jones]

Well, I agree about Gentoo, although an anvil on the head might be rather harsh.

I think desktop environments tend to be fairly intuitive by definition. I may like the way Gnome is organized better than KDE or Windows desktop, but point and click is point and click. I've never had any problems operating any of them.

I think it's typical that a discussion of documentation naturally regresses into yet another distro debate. No one was more of a green, dyed-in-the-wool newbie than I was, and I've never had a problem finding a distro that I liked. I am only now beginning to find user-oriented documentation.

I'm going to keep saying it until someone seems to comprehend it. To cite the number one example: package management. It's not hard to get automated package management for just about any debian-based or rpm-based distro that I know-- however, for a long time, I found it extremely difficult to find the SIMPLE information about how to do it. It's not the software, it's the documentation that really needs to be rethought.

[tlyons]

I think it's typical that a discussion of documentation naturally regresses into yet another distro debate.

Had your initial message been simply an analysis of the Red Hat docs (as your message titled suggested), any debate about distros would have been irrelevant.

However, in suggesting FC4 should be labelled "best newbie distro" (which itself was off-topic), you opened the can of worms again.

- T.

[Hayl]

sorry, I agree with Icarus on this totally both regarding reading docs and that rpm-hell, etc is all totally avoidable, etc.

people need to learn to take their own initiative to help themselves... there is decent documentation for most open source projects avilable out there if people are willing to spend the time to look. this is not only with open source / linux / docs, but wth everything in life. people need to take their own initiative.

i also agree with what tlyons just said in his last post...

[Calipso]

wow, I just took a look at some of those Novell videos. They are really interesting. Its interesting to see people have problems with things that have probably become second nature for all of us here. Things like changing wallpapers and adding contacts to your address book. I wonder what kind of changes Novell is going to make to gnome to try and address the issues that the testers had.