GNU/Linux

[rocketpcguy]

Trying to force people to call Linux "GNU/Linux" seems like the actions of an arrogant dictator

when did he force anyone?

anyway, GLinux is the best, because G can be silent, and everyone can talk about linux, when RMS thinks everyones talking about glinux.

[Seph64]

Well he said that he won't visit any "linux" sites unless those linux sites include "GNU/" in the title, and he goes around making such a big deal about it. Okay, maybe he's not being a dictator about it.

[con]

Maybe kinda of a far shot but..... let's say you were the one that worked your a** of for years with a project called Z, and all of a sudden some guy comes along with the last piece and calls it Y, and ofcourse everyone starts calling it Y...How would you react?

[quip]

Maybe kinda of a far shot but..... let's say you were the one that worked your a** of for years with a project called Z, and all of a sudden some guy comes along with the last piece and calls it Y, and ofcourse everyone starts calling it Y...How would you react?

I'm not sure...it would depend on what I thought was important.

If I thought having project Z completed was the most important thing, I would be a little sore, but pleased that the world now had something that it needed, whoever got the credit.

If I thought it was just as important that everyone knew I did a lot of it, and why I did it, then I would be sore about it, and let everyone know.

Here's the difference: One of the above scenarios involves ego, and one doesn't. I'm not saying I wouldn't have done exactly the same thing as Stallman, but let's at least recognize it for what it is: ego.

And let's not forget that while Richard and GNU have done a tremendous amount for free software and linux, and while the OS I am using right now probably wouldn't exist without him (or at least not how I know it), it wasn't some trivial piece of the puzzle that Linus created; it was the middle piece that holds all the rest of it together. It's the piece the the GNU project _still_ hasn't put together.

I don't say this to diminish what RMS et al have done for not only Linux users, but the world--not only their software, but their philosophy, which is equally important. However, most people seem to jump to one side or the other when discussing this issue, and are reluctant to state it how it really is, although I will.

RMS is jealous; and not just for personal reasons, but probably because his contribution of the GNU philosophy could get lost in the clamor for free (as isn beer) software. What he doesn't realize (or doesn't want to acknowledge) is what many in this thread have already stated: Linux is more than the kernel, more than the utilities (most of which are GNU utilities, I know), more than the DE one uses, more than the apps (which the majority of users benefit from more than all of the GNU utilities); and thusly cannot give credit to all who have contributed, even the few who have contributed the most, which includes RMS. That's why it's referred to as one name that caught on faster than the rest: Linux.

That's my opinion, anyway.

[paj12]

Maybe kinda of a far shot but..... let's say you were the one that worked your a** of for years with a project called Z, and all of a sudden some guy comes along with the last piece and calls it Y, and of course everyone starts calling it Y...How would you react?

In that case in would be fair and correct to call the resulting product Y/Z. However that's not the case with Free Software OSes. The total contributors to all these different system would be enough to fill the alphabet many times.

That argument also assumes that the name of the system is the only proper place to acknowledge contributors to that system. I submit that it is not. Documentation, boilerplates in the code, web sites, splash screens... All are acceptable places to acknowledge contributors to a Free OS.

Web sites, in particular, have an almost unlimited capacity for text, depending on how it's organized. Many web sites have a "Powered by Apache" or "Powered by Linux" badge on their main page if their web server runs code from those projects. Maybe what we need is a "Powered by GNU" or a "Graphics Provided by X11" badge on the main page of distributors of Free OSes. Any project that wants recognition for their efforts can make such a badge and ask distributors to include it in their web site as an acknowledgment.

I his argument for "GNU/Linux" Mr. Stallman raises a very pertinent point. How do we pay respect contributors to something as large as the Free Software movement. His solution: to put some of them in the title of the OS that results from these contributions. There are many other ways to avoid slighting the contributions of Free Software developers, though. You just have to use a little imagination.

[ehawk]

If I possessed the genius and good will of RMS, I wouldn't mind in the least. I would realize (as everyone here does) that anyone who has used linux for more than a year knows and acknowledges the wonderful contributions of the FSF. Again, the GPL and gcc alone are enough to warrant adoration.

RMS got the McArthur Foundation genius grant, not Linus (at least I don't think he ever got one). RMS is recognized as the patron saint of free software, and rightfully so. He should accept our thanks with a smile, and our "evangelizing/proselytizing" should be thanks enough....spreading the "good news" of free software. That's what he hoped for (I think)....a community-driven movement supporting the freedom of code. Mission accomplished!

[con]

If I possessed the genius and good will of RMS, I wouldn't mind in the least. I would realize (as everyone here does) that anyone who has used linux for more than a year knows and acknowledges the wonderful contributions of the FSF. Again, the GPL and gcc alone are enough to warrant adoration.

RMS got the McArthur Foundation genius grant, not Linus (at least I don't think he ever got one). RMS is recognized as the patron saint of free software, and rightfully so. He should accept our thanks with a smile, and our "evangelizing/proselytizing" should be thanks enough....spreading the "good news" of free software. That's what he hoped for (I think)....a community-driven movement supporting the freedom of code. Mission accomplished!

Amen! Couldnt have said it better myself

[cybertron]

Web sites, in particular, have an almost unlimited capacity for text, depending on how it's organized. Many web sites have a "Powered by Apache" or "Powered by Linux" badge on their main page if their web server runs code from those projects. Maybe what we need is a "Powered by GNU" or a "Graphics Provided by X11" badge on the main page of distributors of Free OSes. Any project that wants recognition for their efforts can make such a badge and ask distributors to include it in their web site as an acknowledgment.

Ironically, I think requiring that would violate the GPL. I may be mistaken, but isn't that sort of thing exactly what caused the split between XOrg and XFree86? I guess I'm a little fuzzy on exactly what happened there, but as I recall XFree wanted all distros that used its code to have some sort of acknowledgement that wasn't allowed by the GPL.

On the one hand, I kind of like the idea despite the potential issues with the GPL, but on the other it could get a bit out of hand if every piece of software that goes into a major distro started requiring the distro to acknowledge it. Which is why I leave these debates to people who are more knowledgeable/have stronger opinions than me.

[paj12]

Ironically, I think requiring that would violate the GPL.

Requiring it would be a violation of the GPL; requesting it would not. Mr. Stallman is requesting that people call the system "GNU/Linux". He does not require it, nor does he seek to enforce it through a license. My suggestion was based on the fact that people often sport "Powered by Apache" badges on their web sites. They're not required to, but they feel that Free Software developers are important enough to deserve a little advertisement and recognition.

[zeroth]

its not GNU/Linux OR Linux! its GNU/Xorg/Samba/Linux/Grub/KDE/Fluxbox/nVidia! or, if you prefer, GNU/Xfree/Samba/Linux/lilo/Gnome/Fluxbox/nVidia!

...

It would be best to call it by its distribution which would encompas ALL packages: Gentoo. or Slackware. or Red Hat.

It's all POSIX, and its all Semantics.

Stallman is requesting that people call the system "GNU/Linux".

what a whiner.

Stallman fanboys keep your comments to yourself. I respect the man, but he's a damn whiner.

[rocketpcguy]

its GNU/Xorg/Samba/Linux/Grub/KDE/Fluxbox/nVidia!

heres something i got from a friend: "the fact is that a linux kernel based system can run without X, samba, kde/gnome/etc; without all these you can still use a very functional command-line computer. however, that system would not survive as a functioning or workable linux computer without GNU tools, or without itself (Linux), hence the term GNU/Linux, two essentials for it to just boot whatever distribution."

[zeroth]

heres something i got from a friend: "the fact is that a linux kernel based system can run without X, samba, kde/gnome/etc; without all these you can still use a very functional command-line computer. however, that system would not survive as a functioning or workable linux computer without GNU tools, or without itself (Linux), hence the term GNU/Linux, two essentials for it to just boot whatever distribution."

and Xorg or XFree is *ESSEITIAL* for a desktop system. so is a desktop manager. so at the very least, its Xorg/GNU/Linux/KDE

not to mention all the libraries that the programs require, you'd have to put all those in too.

Xorg/GNU/Linux/KDE/GLIBc/qt ...

[rocketpcguy]

and Xorg or XFree is *ESSEITIAL*

no it isnt, a computer can work fine without it. and even basic programs needs glibc, but thats GNU too.

[paj12]

heres something i got from a friend: "the fact is that a linux kernel based system can run without X, samba, kde/gnome/etc; without all these you can still use a very functional command-line computer. however, that system would not survive as a functioning or workable linux computer without GNU tools, or without itself (Linux), hence the term GNU/Linux, two essentials for it to just boot whatever distribution."

Really?

The "fact is" that the amount of software one can subtract from the bare kernel depends entirely on what the user considers a usable system. You consider a GNU/Linux system sufficient for your computing needs, and for some it is. Some people can use a computer without ever leaving emacs. The rest of us, however, need a little bit more software in the stack. Software projects have sprung up to fill this need.

If you look at the vast majority of Free, UNIX-like operating systems out there, you'll find that there is software in there that is not written by the GNU project and is not part of the Linux kernel. Don't these developers deserve recognition for their efforts too? Especially projects like KDE and X11, since a GUI is considered by many people to be essential to their computing experience? You might say no because you consider them to be "secondary contributions", but I say a computer system is the sum of its parts, both hardware and software, and all the parts are important.

[rocketpcguy]

embedded linux can be called linux, without gnu.

you see, KDE would not have existed without GNU, but GNU would exist fine without KDE. the most we could call it is GNU/X/Linux

but even gnu/linux is such a bother, it is easier to remember to mention gnu philosphy when you talk about linux.