Huh??? I've found Ubuntu to be the easiest distro I've ever tried...
But I know the feeling you're describing, only I got it from SuSE 10.1.
Yeah, SUSE 10.1 was a *****, at least until they fixed it. I stuck with 10.0 for just that reason.
Obviously, many agree about Ubuntu, but I've installed it about dozen times on several machines, and always I wipe it from my system in a fit of pique. The story with Ubuntu, I think, is that it runs great out of the box as a desktop point-and-click thingee, but when I try to customize it it in any way, it gets crazy in a heartbeat. It's just not built for that.
I wanted to run it from the console, but when I tried to edit the /etc/inittab file, I discovered that it didn't have one, so I had to apt-get remove kdm/gdm instead. That worked, but from then on, whenever I used apt-get for anything, I got a long annoying message telling me that, since I had removed kdm, I might as well remove every other KDE application, which it then proceeded to list.
But at least I could run it from the console, although I discovered that after I had installed my nvidia driver, I needed to recompile my kernel modules every time I wanted to use X after rebooting or it wouldn't work. Fortunately, all I really needed to do was to run the nvidia installer again.
So far, it had all been annoying, but I hadn't really been prevented from doing anything I wanted to do, but that changed when i tried to install fluxbox. I discovered that I couldn't apt-get install fluxbox, so I tried to compile it, which with suse had been as easy as "./configure, make, make install", with Ubuntu I discovered that I didn't have the development tools I needed. When I showed the error message to more experienced users in IRC, they told me things like "This isn't a simple fix.", "Your problem is Ubuntu", and "Why the hell are you running Ubuntu?".
Ubuntu is clearly not for every user, and there's really nothing wrong with that, but I'd like to see more discussion about it, particularly because Ubuntu modifies basic Linux administration in ways that most other distros don't. I'm not sure, but it seems to me that if a user wants to graduate from Ubuntu to a more conventional Linux distro, he or she may have to learn certain things all over again. The new user should be warned.
For me, the elimination of the root account as a default symbolizes the problem I have with Ubuntu. It's identified as a "security feature", but basically it's to protect the user from himself/herself. I think it's a little condescending. Yes, son, you can have access to your own computer, as soon as you prove yourself to be responsible. A decent set of development tools? Those are for grownups.
Last edited by blackbelt_jones; 01-03-2007 at 01:52 PM.
blackbelt jones? this is a typical flamebait. And I don't think, no matter how much I'm tempted to put down ubuntu and praise gentoo, that anyone should continue this thread. For goodness sake, let JL.com not join the fiery /. and bottomless digg!
ps: and, reading the topic, I was thinking: what? 1 thread is not enough for ubuntu-raving??? the hoo-ha behind ubuntu is getting rather horrible these days...
Come under the reign of the Idiot King...
Come to me ... I love linux!
blackbelt jones? this is a typical flamebait. And I don't think, no matter how much I'm tempted to put down ubuntu and praise gentoo, that anyone should continue this thread. For goodness sake, let JL.com not join the fiery /. and bottomless digg!
ps: and, reading the topic, I was thinking: what? 1 thread is not enough for ubuntu-raving??? the hoo-ha behind ubuntu is getting rather horrible these days...
I understand your concern, but I disagree. I've been very specific in listing the problems that I had, and I worked hard to do that. There's nothing inherently wrong with Ubuntu not being all things to all users, but I don't think that there's been much discussion about that, and what discussion there has been hasn't been willing to get down to brass tacks. It's usually been at the level of Ubuntu is great/Ubuntu sucks. Obviously, neither is the whole truth, and repeating the polemic solves nothing.
I used to think Ubuntu was a fad, but I was wrong. It's the number one entry point for new users, but it's engineered in a way that makes it fundamentally different from other distros. When newbies have problems these days, they're usually running Ubuntu, which is so different that I find it difficult to help them without knowing Ubuntu myself. Is this going to be a problem for individual users, and therefore the community?
I apologize for letting my frustration with my last Ubuntu experience show,, but there was really no way to avoid that while recounting the experience. And if we could avoid comparisons to gentoo, suse, and our own respective favorites, that would probably be a good thing.
Last edited by blackbelt_jones; 01-03-2007 at 02:23 PM.
Well, ubuntu can make an island alone for all I care --- in the end, its going to use GNU/Linux, and tell me --- how different can it be? The difference between GNU/Linux and Windows is definitely going to be far greater...
As long as ubuntu is still within reach, it would mean that people can use ubuntu as a stepboard to other distros.
If ubuntu's not for you, its not for you. chill... I know the hype is horrible, but its not for you... there is always space for you elsewhere...
Come under the reign of the Idiot King...
Come to me ... I love linux!
Sorry, but as a former user of Ubuntu, I can't agree with Blackbelt Jones. True, I don't have it on my PC at the moment but I can't fault it. I'm talking about an OS that works.
About all the other thing people have complaints about, won't go there.
At this time I'm playing with Etch and Sid. But I do see myself going back to Ubuntu in the future. It's just a flat-out good distro!
Well, ubuntu can make an island alone for all I care --- in the end, its going to use GNU/Linux, and tell me --- how different can it be? The difference between GNU/Linux and Windows is definitely going to be far greater...
As long as ubuntu is still within reach, it would mean that people can use ubuntu as a stepboard to other distros.
If ubuntu's not for you, its not for you. chill... I know the hype is horrible, but its not for you... there is always space for you elsewhere...
I'm sorry, I know English is a second language for you, but you don't seem to be reading what I wrote. I stand by it.
I'm addressing the issue from the perspective of a would-be Linux educator. The truth, I'm afraid, is that anyone who is interested in Newbie education had better get to know Ubuntu. So you see, it really is something that I need, like it or not.
Last edited by blackbelt_jones; 01-03-2007 at 02:28 PM.
Obviously, many agree about Ubuntu, but I've installed it about dozen times on several machines, and always I wipe it from my system in a fit of pique. The story with Ubuntu, I think, is that it runs great out of the box as a desktop point-and-click thingee, but when I try to customize it it in any way, it gets crazy in a heartbeat. It's just not built for that.
I somewhat agree, but we have to define 'customizable' I decided to run gnome, even though I don't really like it, for example it refuses to display/hide removable media icons like the ipod as is appropriate. I'm living with it for now, but hope it gets fixed. (Since it worked correctly in dapper...)
However, with my base system running to my liking, acquiring all the tools to do the video editing I have always wanted to experiment with was a BREEZE!
I wanted to run it from the console, but when I tried to edit the /etc/inittab file, I discovered that it didn't have one, so I had to apt-get remove kdm/gdm instead. That worked, but from then on, whenever I used apt-get for anything, I got a long annoying message telling me that, since I had removed kdm, I might as well remove every other KDE application, which it then proceeded to list.
This is tricky, as Ubuntu pretty much removes this functionality. Here's the workaround:
edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file (save the original) Change something in the video section to a bogus entry, like an invalid default screen, wrong driver, whatever, and then reboot. X will fail to start, and it will drop back to a console login. Very klugey, I know, but it works, and is easier than all the weird init script hacks I found elsewhere.
But at least I could run it from the console, although I discovered that after I had installed my nvidia driver, I needed to recompile my kernel modules every time I wanted to use X after rebooting or it wouldn't work. Fortunately, all I really needed to do was to run the nvidia installer again.
I never saw this problem, either a. install the Ubuntu packaged nvidia driver, or b. install the latest from nvidia, but without the restricted-kernel-modules package installed. (must install without X running, which is tricky, but can be done with above method, or in recovery mode.
upshot, you can have latest nvidia without wifi, or packaged nvidia with wifi
So far, it had all been annoying, but I hadn't really been prevented from doing anything I wanted to do, but that changed when i tried to install fluxbox. I discovered that I couldn't apt-get install fluxbox, so I tried to compile it, which with suse had been as easy as "./configure, make, make install", with Ubuntu I discovered that I didn't have the development tools I needed. When I showed the error message to more experienced users in IRC, they told me things like "This isn't a simple fix.", "Your problem is Ubuntu", and "Why the hell are you running Ubuntu?".
Ubuntu, like Suse, does not install compilers by default. Unlike SuSE, it doesn't give you the option during install! All that is needed is to install the gcc and/or g++ packages via apt-get or Synaptic.
Then the ./configure && make && make install work just fine.
Ubuntu is clearly not for every user, and there's really nothing wrong with that, but I'd like to see more discussion about it, particularly because Ubuntu modifies basic Linux administration in ways that most other distros don't. I'm not sure, but it seems to me that if a user wants to graduate from Ubuntu to a more conventional Linux distro, he or she may have to learn certain things all over again. The new user should be warned.
Agreed (partially) A new user is not necessarily looking to boot to text mode and launch fluxbox by hand as needed. They are trying to replace Windows or get free tools that the equivalents of which cost money in windows, such as kino, dvdauthor, MythTV, etc. (or,like me, they are dead-set on not going to Vista and need to get the rest of the family on board with Linux) I think Ubuntu targets a different type of user, and that is fine. When that user graduates to a different distro, so they have to pick up some new tools. That's what it's all about. The user you describe, who wants to learn right out of the gate probably would be better served by a different distro, maybe Debian, or Slackware. But if it's a true newby who is dumping Windows and dipping their toe into the linux waters for the first time, I stick by my opinion that Ubuntu is a great choice for that.
Also, a server vendor and good friend of mine is a red hat certified system engineer. As such, he hates SuSE, and says the same things about it that you do about Ubuntu. Point...All distros have their quirks.
For me, the elimination of the root account as a default symbolizes the problem I have with Ubuntu. It's identified as a "security feature", but basically it's to protect the user from himself/herself. I think it's a little condescending. Yes, son, you can have access to your own computer, as soon as you prove yourself to be responsible. A decent set of development tools? Those are for grownups.
Umm...sudo -s <password> = root
--OR--
boot into recovery mode, console mode, as root.
XiaoKJ,
This is a little bit baited, but I think it's a worthwile discussion to have, specifically if we define who the newbys really are, and what their collective needs tend to be. i.e, works the first time, and all the hardware is easy to set up...
Sorry, but as a former user of Ubuntu, I can't agree with Blackbelt Jones. True, I don't have it on my PC at the moment but I can't fault it. I'm talking about an OS that works.
About all the other thing people have complaints about, won't go there.
At this time I'm playing with Etch and Sid. But I do see myself going back to Ubuntu in the future. It's just a flat-out good distro!
It's not about you "agreeing" with me. Your experience with Ubuntu was as real as mine, but maybe we can agree that it's not for everyone (cause believe me, it isn't.) and then maybe we can start to build some consenus about who it's for and who it's not for, because that might spare a lot of people a lot of problems.
I somewhat agree, but we have to define 'customizable' I decided to run gnome, even though I don't really like it, for example it refuses to display/hide removable media icons like the ipod as is appropriate. I'm living with it for now, but hope it gets fixed. (Since it worked correctly in dapper...)
However, with my base system running to my liking, acquiring all the tools to do the video editing I have always wanted to experiment with was a BREEZE!
This is tricky, as Ubuntu pretty much removes this functionality. Here's the workaround:
edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file (save the original) Change something in the video section to a bogus entry, like an invalid default screen, wrong driver, whatever, and then reboot. X will fail to start, and it will drop back to a console login. Very klugey, I know, but it works, and is easier than all the weird init script hacks I found elsewhere.
I never saw this problem, either a. install the Ubuntu packaged nvidia driver, or b. install the latest from nvidia, but without the restricted-kernel-modules package installed. (must install without X running, which is tricky, but can be done with above method, or in recovery mode.
upshot, you can have latest nvidia without wifi, or packaged nvidia with wifi
Ubuntu, like Suse, does not install compilers by default. Unlike SuSE, it doesn't give you the option during install! All that is needed is to install the gcc and/or g++ packages via apt-get or Synaptic.
Then the ./configure && make && make install work just fine.
Agreed (partially) A new user is not necessarily looking to boot to text mode and launch fluxbox by hand as needed. They are trying to replace Windows or get free tools that the equivalents of which cost money in windows, such as kino, dvdauthor, MythTV, etc. (or,like me, they are dead-set on not going to Vista and need to get the rest of the family on board with Linux) I think Ubuntu targets a different type of user, and that is fine. When that user graduates to a different distro, so they have to pick up some new tools. That's what it's all about. The user you describe, who wants to learn right out of the gate probably would be better served by a different distro, maybe Debian, or Slackware. But if it's a true newby who is dumping Windows and dipping their toe into the linux waters for the first time, I stick by my opinion that Ubuntu is a great choice for that.
Also, a server vendor and good friend of mine is a red hat certified system engineer. As such, he hates SuSE, and says the same things about it that you do about Ubuntu. Point...All distros have their quirks.
Umm...sudo -s <password> = root
--OR--
boot into recovery mode, console mode, as root.
XiaoKJ,
This is a little bit baited, but I think it's a worthwile discussion to have, specifically if we define who the newbys really are, and what their collective needs tend to be. i.e, works the first time, and all the hardware is easy to set up...
Right now, I don't have time to give this the attention it deserves, but I want to say that this is very much the kind of discussion that I was hoping to initiate. Thanks!
It's also going to be very helpful for me because, as I have mentioned above, my interest in Linux education makes Ubuntu necessary for me, on at least one partition on one of my hard drives. Thanks twice.
Last edited by blackbelt_jones; 01-03-2007 at 02:44 PM.
So far, it had all been annoying, but I hadn't really been prevented from doing anything I wanted to do, but that changed when i tried to install fluxbox. I discovered that I couldn't apt-get install fluxbox, so I tried to compile it, which with suse had been as easy as "./configure, make, make install", with Ubuntu I discovered that I didn't have the development tools I needed.
If you edit the sources file for apt appropriately Ubuntu includes packages for fluxbox.
Code:
jhorsman@jhorsman:~$ apt-cache search fluxbox
backstep - Draws icons for minimized windows on your desktop
bbmail - Mail notifier for Blackbox/Fluxbox
bbrun - An elegant tool for the Blackbox window manager that runs commands
bbtime - Time tool for the blackbox/fluxbox window managers
fbdesk - desktop icons for fluxbox window manager
fbpager - a pager application for the Fluxbox window manager
fluxbox - Highly configurable and low resource X11 Window manager
fluxconf - FluxBox configuration utility
gsetroot - a C/Gtk-based front-end for Esetroot
kdocker - minimize all applications to system tray
pekwm - Fast & Light WindowManager
jhorsman@jhorsman:~/workspace/Overlay$ cd ~
jhorsman@jhorsman:~$ apt-cache search fluxbox
backstep - Draws icons for minimized windows on your desktop
bbmail - Mail notifier for Blackbox/Fluxbox
bbrun - An elegant tool for the Blackbox window manager that runs commands
bbtime - Time tool for the blackbox/fluxbox window managers
fbdesk - desktop icons for fluxbox window manager
fbpager - a pager application for the Fluxbox window manager
fluxbox - Highly configurable and low resource X11 Window manager
fluxconf - FluxBox configuration utility
gsetroot - a C/Gtk-based front-end for Esetroot
kdocker - minimize all applications to system tray
pekwm - Fast & Light WindowManager
"After all you've seen, after all the evidence, why can't you believe?"
IBM Thinkpad T21
750 Mhz P3, 128 MB PC100 RAM, CD-ROM, 10 GB IDE HDD
Ubuntu 9.04 Minimal
If you edit the sources file for apt appropriately Ubuntu includes packages for fluxbox.
Code:
jhorsman@jhorsman:~$ apt-cache search fluxbox
backstep - Draws icons for minimized windows on your desktop
bbmail - Mail notifier for Blackbox/Fluxbox
bbrun - An elegant tool for the Blackbox window manager that runs commands
bbtime - Time tool for the blackbox/fluxbox window managers
fbdesk - desktop icons for fluxbox window manager
fbpager - a pager application for the Fluxbox window manager
fluxbox - Highly configurable and low resource X11 Window manager
fluxconf - FluxBox configuration utility
gsetroot - a C/Gtk-based front-end for Esetroot
kdocker - minimize all applications to system tray
pekwm - Fast & Light WindowManager
jhorsman@jhorsman:~/workspace/Overlay$ cd ~
jhorsman@jhorsman:~$ apt-cache search fluxbox
backstep - Draws icons for minimized windows on your desktop
bbmail - Mail notifier for Blackbox/Fluxbox
bbrun - An elegant tool for the Blackbox window manager that runs commands
bbtime - Time tool for the blackbox/fluxbox window managers
fbdesk - desktop icons for fluxbox window manager
fbpager - a pager application for the Fluxbox window manager
fluxbox - Highly configurable and low resource X11 Window manager
fluxconf - FluxBox configuration utility
gsetroot - a C/Gtk-based front-end for Esetroot
kdocker - minimize all applications to system tray
pekwm - Fast & Light WindowManager
I'm supposed to edit the file? A newbie distro shouldn't make me edit the file. What gives?
But thanks. I'm seeing that a lot of the problems that I'm having with Ubuntu come from me being a sort of intermediate user. An advanced user would be able to handle the problems that I had with trying to ue it as a nonbeginner.
You don't have to edit the file, you can open Synaptic, and in the Settings menu choose 'Repositories'. In there you can select restricted repositories for things like libdvdcss and mp3lame, and you can also add third party repositories for things like Skype.
See attached...
I've been with linux since RedHat 5.? and have learned everything pretty much the hard way. I use ubuntu regularly..its a great distro and very much one of the easiest to set up and use. It is a distro that will keep newbies with linux and if they so desire give them at least a springboard to get under the hood...I can't tell you the number of times over the years I was ready to jump back to the darkside but just being a hard-nosed *&*)(^&( kept me pure.
With all due repect, I have never come across anything I can't do under the hood with ubuntu that I can with debian, slack etc. It just a matter of finding out how. Knowing debian doesn't make you privy to all the ins and outs of slackware either. That's half the fun.
Fluxbox is infact just a apt-get install away if you have the right repositories in sources.list.
Granted you can't do everything right from the liveCD install, but show me a distro where you can.
If linux is to flourish we need a distro that will attract and keep joe average user. One that runs the apps he wants out of the box. No hassles. If he wants to get under the hood he can...if not he doesn't have to.
On top of everything else the communitee support is phenominal, just as it is here.
I think we should all be singing ubuntu praises whether we use it or not.
---------------
Toshiba Satellite A100 Laptop
80 GB Toshiba ATA MK9032GS HD
512MB RAM
ATI Radeon Xpress 200M
Atheros Wireless Ethernet
Ubuntu Dapper Drake 6.06
A newbie probably wouldn't be looking to install a different window manager other than the default one either so I guess it all depends on how you approach things.
"After all you've seen, after all the evidence, why can't you believe?"
IBM Thinkpad T21
750 Mhz P3, 128 MB PC100 RAM, CD-ROM, 10 GB IDE HDD
Ubuntu 9.04 Minimal
Originally Posted by psych-major
so I had to apt-get remove kdm/gdm instead. That worked, but from then on, whenever I used apt-get for anything, I got a long annoying message telling me that, since I had removed kdm, I might as well remove every other KDE application, which it then proceeded to list.
