XFCE 4, libxfce4util, & Debian "Etch"

[DavidMD]

Hello, Folkert!

To be truly honest, I wrote it for myself, and copied it for you. :-)

Thank you for your message, and I am very grateful to you for sharing that list.

Did you have a '~./gtkrc-2...' file in your 'home' directory, I assume within the './config' directory, after you installed XFCE4?

I have spent hours searching the Web and either I have not used the needed terms or words or my lack of this file, which I assume is installed for Gnome or any GTK-based environment, or I the problem is so rare that it I cannot find any mention of it.

Even if the configuration file was not supposed to be installed by default, I assume that when I used XFCE's configuration applet that many or most of my settings in the configuration tool would have generated the 'gtkrc' configuration file. (I do have some XML files that include what are obvious my settings, but I do not know the specifications of the 'mcs' DTD, so I hesitate to modify the XML files, especially when I assumed I would find a default 'gtkrc' file in my home directory and that I would modify it when I customized my settings.

I did more research today, but gave up after several fruitless hours.

I still need to get my keyboard recognized and working by editing 'xorg.conf', and every time that I run Debian's command to reconfigure X, I end up with a slightly different 'xorg.conf' file. I have to edit it, because so many settings are wrong.

By checking the X log file, I can see that some of the errors with the section of options that immediately follows the first section of font paths (some of which are incorrect, but the Debian tool is "smart" enough to put the correct paths in 'xorg.conf').

As you may know, these options primarily deal with the protocols used by the video card and also with the installed fonts.

I have written down a few Debian packages, such as 'xfce4-session' (although I think it is listed as a "Similar Package" and not a dependency), to make sure a component of XFCE4 was not installed properly by APT, but I received no errors when I installed XFCE4. Perhaps I need to move the entire computer system close enough to the router to connect to a Debian repository. I know that Iceweasel/Firefox needs updating from '.12 to '.13', for example, and the MS core fonts package will not get installed until I am on-line.

I have not yet configured the network settings, however, nor have I configured the IP tables so that Debian has at least a basic firewall. (I also have no idea where I will put the computer system in the room where the router is, and I've been physically weak because of the prolonged illness.)

It is odd that the XFCE 4 Debian package maintainer still has 'xfwm4' listed for "Etch," because Thunar has replaced it. I actually tried to install 'xfwm4' after installing XFCE 4 and APT displayed an error that it was deprecated, because Thunar was the file manager.

I also either failed to install HAL, or it is not in the correct location (or I failed to perform post-installation tasks), because I come across an error that HAL is not installed.

Installing XFCE 4 did place it in the start-up file for X, which was the case with the KDE and Gnome desktop environments, but I need to make the two buttons active and functional -- the ones that that appear to the right of "Shutdown" (or the equivalent) button on the panel that appears after I click the shutdown icon in the panel.

Of course, the fact that those two buttons are inactive indicates that I need to edit some of X's files, because shutting down should terminate the XFCE session, then X, and power down the computer. Instead, I exit XFCE and X terminates, but I am back at the text-based login prompt, so I have to perform a double "Vulcan neck pinch" and hit CONTROL-ALT-BACKSPACE and then CONTROL-ALT-DELETE -- at which point Debian starts killing XFCE processes and then X itself.

These problems are the result of user error (me!), because I had planned to install 'xdm', in my apparently unattainable effort to install only the GTK+ files and libraries needed by XFCE 4, so I did not install 'gdm', nor did I install 'kdm'. (At the time, I suspected installing the former would require GNOME as a dependency, although 'gdm' is obviously dependent on GTK+, and I had the same ignorant concern about 'kdm', although it depends on the QT library and not the entire KDE environment.) I forgot to install 'xdm' or perhaps I need to edit some files to get it to appear as the login screen.

After I enter my user name and password, I have to type 'startx' to run XFCE, and perhaps I am launching TWO X sessions?

I have several Gnome and KDE directories and libraries, although the only software I have installed besides the basic items in your list are 'Iceweasel/Firefox' and 'Sylpheed-Claws'. Perhaps the browser uses QT and the e-mail client uses GTK.

I do know for certain that 'Iceweasel/Firefox' uses my default XFCE 4 theme and style, but that 'Sylpheed-Claws' (which was renamed 'Claws Mail' at least a year ago) looks horrible, looking like an application built with GTK and using the most basic, primitive widgets with no style applied. It is so ugly and looks completely out of place with XFCE, which is themed, despite my other problems, that I close it down as soon as I open it (simply to configure it, because it is of no use without a connection to the Internet or Debian's network settings not yet configured).

I have read in several places that much effort has gone into making sure that Gnome and KDE applications integrate as seamlessly as possible into the other environment -- which I believe is one of the goals of the Free Desktop Standards -- but either XFCE (which is a bit too "Gnome-like" for me, simply because I cannot be productive in Gnome, nor is it the right "fit" for me) has not yet matured enough to "play well" with Gnome and KDE, and I have not installed some of the GNU/X.org programs (such as Xbiff or Xload) that I often use, although Gnome and KDE are designed to integrate X programs well.

Of course, I am using the X Screen Savers, but they have no widgets or GUIs and I configured the one I have used for years, because my first Linux system had a 2-D video card and the X.org 'nv' driver provides no 3-D support, but this screen saver runs as well on this Nvidia card with 512-MB of video RAM as it did on my 2-D Matrox card with 32-MB of RAM.

However, I need to enable the 'xscreensaver' daemon to launch automatically at startup. When I first set up my screen saver, I got an error that 'xscreensaver.d' was not running and I selected "Yes" to start it and then followed the instructions, using 'su' and the root password, that were supposed to configure it to launch automatically at the start of each X session. I no longer get the error, but unless I open the control panel tool and click on the 'Close' button (because the screen saver is still selected and configured), after 10 minutes of inactivity the monitor shuts down instead of the screen saver starting.

I could go on and on, Folkert, although this message is almost as long as the one I wrote yesterday, but I obviously have serious problems with X and XFCE, and I would like to install some basic programs, at least Emacs; Firestarter; OpenOffice.org; and an IDE or similar tools with syntax highlighting for (X)HTML, Perl, PHP, and Python (although I could use Emacs as an IDE, e-mail client, and GNUChess interface...and more).

It is important, however, that I take care of these many loose threads, install at least one set of icons besides the oddly designed Rodent them, and try to see if I can find SOME way to single-click desktop icons and "lasso" multiple desktop icons with the mouse cursor to select them. One reason I did not use Gnome for long is because I had to double-click the mouse all of the time (which I have not done in years), although I believe I could "lasso" desktop icons to rearrange them or do whatever I wanted.

KDE uses the UNIX default of single-clicking, instead of double-clicking, but perhaps GTK lacks the libraries to offer this option on the Gnome and XFCE desktops, although single-clicking does work in Thunar for me. (I could map X to interpret two clicks of the left mouse button as one, but it is not worth the disastrous consequences that would occur if I were doing anything but opening a desktop icon!)

I need to get X and XFCE stable and then I can worry about single-mouse clicks and the major issue of having installed programs appear repulsive and primitive. (I could try enable preloading Gnome and KDE applications, but I run programs such as the GUI frontend to 'dbg' that use Athena widgets or some other Motif-like bare-bones components (resembling CDE or the FVWM2 default), but with other desktop environments or window managers, the title bars and their widgets have always been from the them I was using. Perhaps I am missing a crucial package, it is corrupted, or I have to perform a task manually that has occurred automatically in the past.

Although I used KDE for many years, each version suffered from random crashes by programs or Konqueror itself (in its dual-role of Web browser and file manager, although I know 'dolphin' is the new file manager for KDE 4). Given the random nature of these crashes, I had no idea of there was a problem with the RPMs I had installed, the way the distribution had implemented KDE -- but, despite KDE's many features, it has never been stable for me in a span of six years, and it gets more bloated and the default theme and icons seem more cartoonish and oddly shaped with each release.

I am hoping that I can fix the many problems I have -- and I always assume that I am the cause, even in this situation when almost everything seems broken or missing -- because I want to give XFCE a chance. I guess that I should begin with X.org, although I see components of XFree86 in Debian "Etch", not to mention that X has never been thoroughly documented, and my newest Linux books refer to XFree86 only, as does most of the information I find on the Web. The differences should be subtle, but "Etch" is Debian's transition into X.org from XFree86 and I know that some transitional packages are on my first installation of Debian, and people who upgraded from "Sarge" or earlier versions apparently have all kinds of transitional packages.

I also wonder how XFCE would be running if I had the most current update of Version 4.4, which is part of 'sid', so the version of XFCE 4 in the final release of testing/"Lenny" will be out of date, and by the time "sid" becomes "testing," I hope that XFCE won't still be at 4.4, but then major XFCE releases take quite a bit of time. I remember checking xfce.org every week when 4.4 was about to be released, because it had new features and the interface was the most appealing one yet; even the XFCE 4.4 wallpapers were more interesting -- and I have always liked the XFCE "mouse" logo -- which has a "warm, fuzzy" appeal that KDE's gears and Gnome's footprint lack. (I don't every recall seeing a child hugging a plush gear or foot; plush animals are typical.)

(Despite having a 3.0-GHz Pentium-4, SATA hard drives, and 4-MB of RAM, I have to admit that I have been reading up on fluxbox and looking at Enlightenment themes, given the aesthetic oddity of the default themes, but -- especially if I abandon my unrealistic, open-source ideal for Debian -- and install Nvidia's binary driver for this video card, and I cannot use two monitors with the card with the free, open-source 'nv' driver, I can certainly handle a desktop environment, although I do not like Gnome and KDE has been less than ideal. I also do have problems with Linux and the proprietary Dell hardware in a heat-retaining case, and I have removed every piece of proprietary I can; perhaps I can find a compatible Intel motherboard, better PSU, and a cooler case -- but this machine was made in 2004 and a compatible motherboard that supports 4-MB of RAM will be rare or used. If I had any money to spend on hardware, however, I'd rebuild my self-built system for the fifth time; quad-core 64-bit processors are actually less now than my 32-bit, 2.2-GHz Pentium-4, without hyper-threading, cost me in 2002!)

Well, Folkert, I am obviously worn out and rambling -- and I know that your patience is exhausted, so I will stop writing. Being ill for over a year and getting little sleep because of vivid nightmares for ten months hardly make me as alert and lucid as I'd like, but switching to Debian GNU/Linux after six years and having all of this problems with X.org and XFCE do give me an intellectual challenge, although my constant research and testing are spawning even more questions -- and I have already been an imposing pest who becomes more irritating with each new post in this thread!

Thank you for your time, patience, and help!

Cordially,

David

[folkert]

Did you have a '~./gtkrc-2...' file in your 'home' directory, I assume within the './config' directory, after you installed XFCE4?

me@home:~$ find | grep gtk
./.config/gtk-2.0
./.config/gtk-2.0/gtkfilechooser.ini
./.config/xfce4/mcs_settings/gtk.xml
me@home:~$

so i guess: no

After I enter my user name and password, I have to type 'startx' to run XFCE

I added startx to the end of .bash_profile in my home dir

Thank you for your time, patience, and help!

your welcome, sorry I couldn't be more of a help. You wrote about more problems than I could understand, let alone solve.

[DavidMD]

Greetings, Folkert!

As always, I appreciate your time, help, efforts, and your concern about my problems (many of which I know are self-inflicted). I feel as if we have gone beyond total strangers and are now truly interested in each other's personal welfare -- which is one of the aspects of JustLinux that is, to me, more important than members' efforts to help each other with Linux.

I hope that all is well and that you are having a nice evening (given the time difference between our different locations, which I believe is either seven or eight hours)!

me@home:~$ find | grep gtk
./.config/gtk-2.0
./.config/gtk-2.0/gtkfilechooser.ini
./.config/xfce4/mcs_settings/gtk.xml
me@home:~$

so i guess: no

Thank you for taking the time to check for me, Folkert! I will have to check, but, based upon my sieve-like memory, I believe that my 'home' directory contains multiple XML configuration files in the 'xfce4' sub-directory but that I have no 'gtk-2.0' subdirectory. Instead, either I have subdirectories containing subdirectories containing XML files for various components that would be in your 'gtk-2.0' subdirectory, or my GTK 2.0 settings are XML files in subdirectories for each GTK component.

I added startx to the end of .bash_profile in my home dir

Thank you for the information, Folkert. Obviously, 'startxfce4' is in my initialization file for X, but after I log in via the command line, X does not "know" that it should start, but after I log in and type 'startx', X launches another session with XFce4 as its desktop environment.

(Aside: Someone who has posted almost 700 messages in the XFce forums on the XFce Web site has as his '.sig' file the statement that "XFCE4 is not an acronym and means nothing -- although I believe the FAQ may state otherwise -- and that the proper appellation is "XFce4." If he is correct, I must look like a total neophyte/"newbie" by typing "XFCE 4"!)

Regarding starting an X session, Folkert, I have not yet determined why the Xscreensaver daemon ('xscreensaverd') does not automatically start when X does. If I can locate the screen saver daemon's file, I can include it in X's startup configuration. I got an error that the daemon was not running when I first selected my screen saver and followed its instructions to have the daemon run when X starts, but the Xscreensaver daemon still fails to start, although I at least stopped the error from appearing. I did write the error down and save it as a text file with Mousepad in my 'home' directory, so I can share it on JustLinux if I cannot find a way to start the Xscreensaver daemon. I assume that, because I have XFce automatically save sessions when I exit, although I end back at the text-based login prompt and have to kill X twice and, it appears, some XFce daemon processes -- only to have the computer restart and not shut down, forcing me to hold down the power button to shut off the computer.

I have so many problems that probably are solely with X.org that, in combination with my problems with XFce4, I do not know where to start; plus, I realize that many of the problems are related, because XFce4 obviously requires X to run, and to be configured correctly.

your welcome, sorry I couldn't be more of a help. You wrote about more problems than I could understand, let alone solve.

Folkert, you owe me no apologies! I am very grateful to you for taking the time to read my "lists of woes" and for every bit of help that you have provided. The fact that you genuinely care means a great deal to me, Folkert, and helps motivate me to face challenges that overwhelm me. I have seen enough XFce4-related discussions in the hours (which add up to days and days) I continue to spend searching the Web with Google/Linux to know that there are people who have minor problems with XFce, often people new to Linux who are using Xubuntu, and they give up on XFce after making nasty comments about it.

When I first learned about XFce and realized that versions 4.2 and 4.4 each would resolve major issues and add new features, such as a file manager (Thunar), I literally checked XFce.org at least twice a week to see if the final releases were out and how smoothly they ran for "early adopters," who probably had been running beta and release-candidate versions anyway.

At one point on the XFce.org Web site, perhaps on the FAQ page, in response to a final question about why XFce lacks certain features or what the release schedule for XFce is, Olivier Fourdan himself, I presume -- who must be frustrated and irritated by lazy or demanding users, reminds people that XFce has always been developed and tested by volunteers, and that if someone wanted to donate the funds to the project so that he could hire one single full-time developer, XFce would be able to fix bugs (and all software has bugs), provide requested features (as long as GTK provides the ability to add those features), and possibly even have a release date.

I think some whining XFce users need to be reminded that everyone working on XFce is a dedicated volunteer -- and, as someone who has donated several thousand hours to nonprofit organizations, I know too well that working for free will not even buy you groceries, although it is gratifying to be able to do anything to make the world a bit better -- and that people all over the world benefit from XFce, but that -- just like Debian GNU/Linux itself, and almost all open-source projects -- XFce is the result of people all over the world spending untold hours working for free on the project (and those volunteers are sacrificing untold hours to volunteer, and have to spend most of their time working at paid jobs so that they can eat, have a place to live, cover expenses, and afford to have computers and Internet connections in order to work for free on XFce).

If I am too mentally deficient to run a Debian GNU/Linux system with an XFce 4 desktop, I would be rude, ignorant, and cruel to blame the dedicated XFce team of volunteers. I have been using Linux since 2002, which I realize is nothing compared to people who have used Linux when the kernel was not yet at version 1.0, many of whom have also worked on the GNU software that has made the word Linux synonymous with a robust, secure, stable, full-feature, powerful, customizable, and totally free, complete and open-source operating system.

Switching from Novell's openSUSE to Debian GNU/Linux and, at the same time, switching from KDE to XFce (which is new to me) -- after giving Gnome another try -- means that I am making major and multiple adjustments, encounter problems I never had with SuSE, and adapt to "Etch" moving to X.org, (and also providing transitional packages for people upgrading from "Sarge" and earlier versions), and feeling overwhelmed by constant deluges of problems or unfamiliar Debian features (which I like, and I also prefer Debian's packaging system over RPMs -- in addition to admiring the Debian Social Contract and philosophy).

The fact that you are taking your valuable free time to read my long litanies of problems, Folkert, means very much to me. Plus, I am deeply grateful for every single suggestion you offer -- and I have always been thankful for any advice I get on JustLinux!

Idea to Make GTK/Gnome Programs Not Look Horrible in XFce: Finally, Folkert, in reference to my problem with even GTK-based programs, such as Synaptic and Sylpheed-Claws (which became a totally self-contained fork of Sylpheed in 2005 and is now Claws-Mail at version 3.0.3, so Debian's Sylpheed-Claws is actually a dead project and I need to install Claws-Mail and its great plug-ins from Debian "Lenny" or from source -- or probably use Thunderbird, although I have one friend who loves Mutt and another, who is my age, who will use Pine only), I think that the reason all GTK-based programs look so hideous and primitive is that they come from Gnome and I need to have a 'gtkrc' file, as Gnome does, so that these GTK/Gnome programs will use my Xfce themes, just as they would use the theme settings in 'gtkrc' under Gnome.

I need to figure out how to create a 'gtkrc' file for XFce. In addition, I may need to find a Gnome theme that I like (and I am happy with my theme in XFce, which may be included with Gnome...but I am not running Gnome) to to all I can to make the GTK/Gnome programs integrate with the appearance of XFce.

Does this idea make any sense, or is this possible solution I am considering to one of my problems impossible and destined to fail?

I would appreciate feedback from anyone. (If I solve that problem, I will have to figure out what to do if I want to use a QT/KDE program so that its appearance integrates with my GTK/Xfce desktop!)

Perhaps this idea is the result of desperation, but if it is not totally stupid and simply will not work, then there must be other alternatives!

Thank you, again, Folkert!

Cordially,

David