Does KDE want to murder Konqueror?

[blackbelt_jones]

I've been pussyfooting around this issue for months, deliberating with myself, vacillating between paranoia and self-doubt, trying to decide how much it matters-- and I'm not getting anywhere with it.

As far as I have been able to tell, in KDE4, there is no available filter bar (which enables rapid sorting of files in the present working directory.). Also, the storage media function is no longer supported. I can't shake the conviction that it feels like sabatoge, a deliberate crippling to force users into the arms of Dolphin (the fins of Dolphin?), the snazzy new file maanager that is more polished than Konqueror, but a lot less powerful. Dolphin is the better file manager until you try to do something creative with it.

My friends in here know how crazy I get, so maybe you can talk me out of this conviction.

[infiniphunk]

It's been a long time since I've used KDE or Konqueror, but I know where you're coming from. What you just described totally reminds me of the whole Audacious replacing Xmms situation, which to me is a fiasco.
I guess on the flipside the good thing is that nobody is forcing you to use any particular distro, WM or file-manager. But from a users perspective, to me it's a pain in the *** when I suddenly find an application that I love being left by the wayside.

[stumbles]

I don't know anymore. I have been using kde4 since 4.0, and maybe I have not dug far enough under the hood of konqueror, but it appears to me now with 4.1.1, next to no progress has been made on konqueror as a file manager. Heck, I would go so far as to say the same using it as a web browser. On the latter, the most annoying thing is its crashing the flash plugin.

Anyway, even after assurances from kde folks on the dot this would not be the case. I think konqueror is doomed. Which is really, really disappointing. Because I dislike the pathetic replacement they call dolphin.

The storage media stuff they have got in dolphin, which mostly works, afaict. And yeah, its absence in konqueror is a huge hole.

[stumbles]

It's been a long time since I've used KDE or Konqueror, but I know where you're coming from. What you just described totally reminds me of the whole Audacious replacing Xmms situation, which to me is a fiasco.
I guess on the flipside the good thing is that nobody is forcing you to use any particular distro, WM or file-manager. But from a users perspective, to me it's a pain in the *** when I suddenly find an application that I love being left by the wayside.

It is not a matter of anyone forcing anything on me. It is just, after using konqueror for so long (since kde3.something), I have gotten really used to it, and thought it a great piece of technology.

[blackbelt_jones]

It is not a matter of anyone forcing anything on me. It is just, after using konqueror for so long (since kde3.something), I have gotten really used to it, and thought it a great piece of technology.

If you read some of these discussions closely, there's a mentality afoot that seems to discard "I'm used to it" as a legitimate reason for doing anything. We don't care if it's not broke, we're going to fix it anyway.

With me, being forced to use dolphin. The feeling of having these choices made for me drives me to extremes of sadness and rage. I mean, this is the Linux desktop I've been customizing for three years. It IS important. It DOES matter! And I'm really mad, because they said that Konqueror would be maintained, then they removed essential features.

You guys know what I mean by the filter bar. You have a thousand pdf files, you type in "Ubuntu", and only the filters whose names contain the word "Ubuntu" are used. It makes locating files in Konqueror as easy as using the ls command in Bash. Without it, I'm back using Windows Explorer in Win98. Well, there isn't a filter bar any more, even if you add the konq-plugins, but there is something called a "Dolphin bar", f**k you very much!

I think it's time to make the KDE team an offer they can't refuse.

[Darkbolt]

http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show...?content=39419

Just for you BBJ

[blackbelt_jones]

http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show...?content=39419

Just for you BBJ

That's what I'm talking about all right! Thanks, Pal!



You know, if you go to konqueror.org, no one has even bothered to annouce any of the 4.x releases. (I haven't checked asince 3.5.10). I think the KDE team really is doing some great work, and the consensus is that KDE4 is destined to be an awesome desktop, but they just don't seem to give a rat's *** about my favorite desktop application. There's no law that says they should. But something must be done.

Forking Konqueror would involve forking kde-base packages and kde libs. Just two packages, but you know they must be the most enormous packages in all of Khristendom. I guess I'll give it a try. It would be a terrible idea if it required me taking any real risk, but it doesn't. I might make a fool of myself, but at this late date, who would even notice? I happen to be retired, so I have the time. I don't know anything about C++, but if I'm willing to put in four-six hours a day, perhaps the community would be willing to give me enough guidance so that I could learn as I go.

[arioch]

I agree with the poster. Konqueror is being deliberately crippled to propagate a "voluntary" switch to dolphin and the development team isn't being honest about it. To new users, I have often used the versatility of konqueror as the primary salespoint for Linux and/with KDE. Now, I can't do that anymore. Konqueror has been instrumental in making the linux desktop a userfriendly experience back when I was learning/switching from Windows.

Now I just recommend Ubuntu/Gnome instead.

That's what you get for crapping in your own nest, killing a killerapp.

@Blackbelt Jones: Your efforts would be greatly appreciated and I'm sorry I don't have the skills to pitch in. I'm a PHP/AJAX guy.

[blackbelt_jones]

I agree with the poster. Konqueror is being deliberately crippled to propagate a "voluntary" switch to dolphin and the development team isn't being honest about it. To new users, I have often used the versatility of konqueror as the primary salespoint for Linux and/with KDE. Now, I can't do that anymore. Konqueror has been instrumental in making the linux desktop a userfriendly experience back when I was learning/switching from Windows.

Now I just recommend Ubuntu/Gnome instead.

That's what you get for crapping in your own nest, killing a killerapp.

@Blackbelt Jones: Your efforts would be greatly appreciated and I'm sorry I don't have the skills to pitch in. I'm a PHP/AJAX guy.

You understand, do you not, that all I know about C++ is how to spell it?

There may be something direct that you can do eventually. For now, your moral support means everything. I woke up this morning and the first thought in my head was "MY GOD WHAT HAVE I GOTTEN MYSELF INTO? ", and your post calmed me down considerably.


Anyone can support me by following the brand new blackbelt_jones miniblog at twitter.com. There will also be a full-sized blog and a forum. I am seeking to build a community that I can draw on for support. You can never tell what I'm going to need help with. (Development tools, online resources, text editors...", but right now, I'm going to man up enough to admit that what I need most is a little hand-holding. If you subscribe to my twitter blog, it counts as a vote for "I don't think you're crazy for doing this, blackie" .

Last night I installed Vector Linux 5.9 standard on my oldest machine. Vector uses XFCE; there's no KDE installed on the system natively. It's Slackware-based, and I imagine that means a good set of development tools by default.

Here's a quote from the FAQ at Konqueror.org:

Can I run Konqueror without running KDE?

Yes. Just install Qt, kdelibs and kdebase, and from your favourite window manager, just launch Konqueror. It should work just fine, but if it doesn't (KDE developers don't test that case often), report it to http://bugs.kde.org and try running "kdeinit" before running Konqueror, it usually helps.
This is of course the same for any other KDE application.

Step one is to get to know what Qt, kdelibs and kdebase look like, seperate from the rest of KDE. I intend to compile differerent versions of these packages, read the release notes, and finally find out what the code looks like.

I envision step two as taking the code and renaming everything that's in it, so that it can compile as something other than KDE. Maybe that's just a matter of lots of simple search and replace, but I'm not counting on it.

I don't know what the endgame is going to be. The finished product could be anything from a stand-alone version of Konqueror that only does file management (I still like the name Liberator) to a new Desktop environment... actually the old Desktop environment with a new name. It depends on what I find, what I can manage, how much help I get, and what people want. If you think this may pan out, and if you want to influence the shape it takes, that's another good reason to follow me at Twitter. The easiest thing might be to just rename everything in those two packages, add whatevever plugins are needed for full functionality, and hope someone comes along who can help us maintain it. For me, this is about saving Konqueror. That's all I care about.

Another way this could pan out is that although I intend to behave in as nonthreatening and respectful a manner as possible, KDE perceives this effort as pressure and decides that, yeah maybe, Konqueror is an important part of KDE. This would sure make my life easier, but it's interesting to note that the minute I decided to take Konqueror's fate into my own hands, I could let go of all my resentment toward KDE4. In fact, I may start using it sometimes, because of the Twitter plasmoid. So KDE could discover that

Anyway, if you think that this effort could pressure KDE to be more Konqueror-positive, and you want them to take me seriously, that's just another reason. If I may paraphrase Jim Morrison:

Tell all the people that you see:
Follow me!
At Twitter.com

I believe in innocent until proven guilty, and giving KDE the benefit of the doubt. It really was beginning to look like KDE was doing a Tonya Harding on Konqueror, but it's not hard to imagine that Konq had fallen to the bottom of their list of priorities. They've got a lot on their plate, and it's probably in the nature of developers to be focused on the new stuff.

[Darkbolt]

If anything, I think they might be going back to the unix roots of 'do one thing, and do it _well_'. e.g. have dolphin for file management, make it kick *** at file management, and allow konqueror to be a better web browser. It's probably easier for them to maintain both this way, and focus on what functionality should be where...That's just my guess, atleast.

Personally, I see that the 4.x branch has alot of potential, but the build of 4.1.1 that I've tried ran _really_ sluggishly on my machine. So I'm keeping kde 3.5 installed and using konqueror in fluxbox (I'm not trying to have it be such a critical application that you use it for, I just find the split panes incredibly useful. I can have one pane for an ftp site, and another pane for the local site, and easily transfer between the two...Easier than switching tabs, even. It's the one feature that drew me away from nautilus)



BBJ, worst case scenario just keep the sources that you need around from the 3.5 branch...iirc kdebase & libs dont require too much outside of qt3

[blackbelt_jones]

If anything, I think they might be going back to the unix roots of 'do one thing, and do it _well_'. e.g. have dolphin for file management, make it kick *** at file management, and allow konqueror to be a better web browser. It's probably easier for them to maintain both this way, and focus on what functionality should be where...That's just my guess, atleast.

Personally, I see that the 4.x branch has alot of potential, but the build of 4.1.1 that I've tried ran _really_ sluggishly on my machine. So I'm keeping kde 3.5 installed and using konqueror in fluxbox (I'm not trying to have it be such a critical application that you use it for, I just find the split panes incredibly useful. I can have one pane for an ftp site, and another pane for the local site, and easily transfer between the two...Easier than switching tabs, even. It's the one feature that drew me away from nautilus)



BBJ, worst case scenario just keep the sources that you need around from the 3.5 branch...iirc kdebase & libs dont require too much outside of qt3

I get waaay too excited about this. Worst case scenario, I use Dolphin, and it doesn't kill me.

I think I just had an epiphany. We don't need a fork to KDE3 when KDE3 is still being maintained. The last release was when, three weeks ago? They're sayng KDE3 will be maintained for years, and longer if people continue to use it.

That's really the key, right there. if you want to continue to use KDE3, what you have to do is... (dramatic pause) continue to use KDE.

I have not come to bury KDE4, but to praise it! It's a great project, and exactly what developers should be doing. Developers ought to be driving development, but I'm starting to talk to people who have gone to KDE4 but who tell me they still find KDE3 more useful. Users ought to drive use.

KDE4 is where the community's attention is centered, and using it makes us feel like we're part of the community. Not using it makes us feel anxious about being left behind. I myself am not immune. I can't prevent myself from installing each new release.

People who want KDE 3 to continue shouldn't waste their time on a fork that I doubt anyone really wants. What we want is a real KDE 3 community. Let's get together and create some good documentation! (The current Konqueror manual... isn't.) How about some themes, a nice website, some forums. I say HELL YES!

[Calipso]

can't you just compare konqueoror from kde3 and kde4 and then see what they took out and put it back in to the kde4 version? I'm sure you'd have to jump through some hoops but it should be doable since they're both done in the same language.

[nolimit974]

i don't know but i will murdering kde soon.

[blackbelt_jones]

can't you just compare konqueoror from kde3 and kde4 and then see what they took out and put it back in to the kde4 version? I'm sure you'd have to jump through some hoops but it should be doable since they're both done in the same language.

Maybe. But let's just wait and see until they finish it.

I feel embarassed for overreacting. You know, Kde and dolphin together can do anything in KDE4 that Konqueror can do in KDE3. It just fills me with rage to feel forced into switching off. But nobody ever forced me to use KDE4 in the first place. My only problem is that I'm angry, over nothing, and that's my own fault. Letting a desktop application push MY buttons is a stupid way to assert my independance. Jesus, what am I, twelve? You know, I had to go to the urologist today. I'm 50 now. I have the emotional stability of a pre-teen, and the prostate of a man in his late sixties.

There's nothing to get upset about. Everything is as it should be, If people want to keep using KDE3, all they have to do is keep using KDE3. In its simple, limited way, KDE3 is pretty close to perfect. So the developers are going to go develop something else. KDE doesn't need to be forked, it doesn't need to be developed, it needs to be mainatined. And that's what's happening. I really hope I can convince other KDE3 fans to help me build a little community, though. KDE3 doesn't need to be developing to be the nexus of a vital user-oriented community.

This is no social crisis. This is me having fun.

[blackbelt_jones]

i don't know but i will murdering kde soon.

There have been moments lately when I've thought that KDE might become the death of me!